I see a lot of{For myself, and also, others who post with a prayer request}this common belief Christians have that they tell the person with the problem that it's a "good thing"it's "bad" when things go smoothly because you wouldn't rely on God. But I have some issues with that.Like, I notice that the ones who tell someone else that, some time later THEY have a problem, and they're clamoring for others to pray for them. Sooo...if they thought suffering is so "godly", why are they asking for others to pray them OUT OF a problem? They think suffering is "good" until it happens to them, then they're right there asking for prayer to get out of the problem.If they think hardships are good, they should give a praise report instead of a prayer request when their own problems pop up.Right?Second Also, I don't think ALL problems promote spiritual growth. Like, if it's pouring rain and your umbrella breaks, how does that make you more spiritual?If you catch a cold from someone, if your nose is running, does that make you more spiritual?Some things are just obstacles we face living in a fallen world,I don't think we can put everything into one basket and say it's a spiritual lesson.If you go out and get bit by mosqutoes, how does the itching make you more spiritual?I think all problems are for different reasons, and we shouldn't jump to conclusions with a "one size fits all" answer. Amen.
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Christian masochism?
- Thread starter Steven Bobb
- Start date
The Encourager
The Encourager
Steven Bobb
Beloved of All
9 minutes ago, The Encourager said:
But I think Christians overuse that idea,they apply it to everything.Like I pointed out, I don't think each and every case is the same.
Newbie
Beloved of All
Is suffering good for us? Yes, because there are many things you can only learn through suffering. Does all suffering bring spiritual growth? No., but there are physical and practical lessons to be learned as well.
If I understood correctly, the question is, if suffering is good for us then why do many Christians pray for their suffering to end? Is that not counterproductive?
The truth is that many times that is the very reason for our suffering, to get us to seek the Lord, so that He can draw us closer to Him. It is in our suffering that we seek out the Lord, it is in our times of trial that we pray to the Lord in desperation, it is in these moments that we truly surrender our will to God. It is in these moments that God is nearest to us.
Look at Jesus. "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42) Jesus asked God to deliver Him from what was to come, but then He surrendered His will to God. And we need to do the same, when we pray for deliverance we must also add, "Not my will, Lord, but Thine be done." We present our request before the Lord, e.g. deliverance from our current problems/trials/tests/etc., and then we leave the matter in His hands.
Nobody enjoys suffering. Suffering of itself isn't beneficial, it is what is born of suffering that is beneficial.
If I understood correctly, the question is, if suffering is good for us then why do many Christians pray for their suffering to end? Is that not counterproductive?
The truth is that many times that is the very reason for our suffering, to get us to seek the Lord, so that He can draw us closer to Him. It is in our suffering that we seek out the Lord, it is in our times of trial that we pray to the Lord in desperation, it is in these moments that we truly surrender our will to God. It is in these moments that God is nearest to us.
Look at Jesus. "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42) Jesus asked God to deliver Him from what was to come, but then He surrendered His will to God. And we need to do the same, when we pray for deliverance we must also add, "Not my will, Lord, but Thine be done." We present our request before the Lord, e.g. deliverance from our current problems/trials/tests/etc., and then we leave the matter in His hands.
Nobody enjoys suffering. Suffering of itself isn't beneficial, it is what is born of suffering that is beneficial.
Steven Bobb
Beloved of All
I know Christians are "taught" to believe that,but I don't buy it for a few reasons.One, I think it "shortchanges" God. saying it's the ONLY way He can get to us,He doesn't know any better way.To Christians, that seems to be the ONLY way God knows.Second, it doesn't always work;in my case and other posts I read, some Christians feel more grateful to God when He blesses them, not gives them, or lets them stay in, hardships.Thirdly, by that logic,masochists would be the most spiritual people on Earth.Does that way of thinking imply that every time a masochist gets beaten with a cat of nine tails,he gets more spiritual?Yey many masochists are atheists.. Also, the Hindus believe in torturing themselves fo win God over,but with that suffering, they'restill pagans.Also, those in the Lake of Fire , by that logic,must be the most godly of all, because they suffer for eternity,but we know they're anything but.So again, that "one size fits all",parrot like response to EVERYONE with every problem, I can't say it always applies.
7 hours ago, Newbie said:
Is suffering good for us? Yes, because there are many things you can only learn through suffering. Does all suffering bring spiritual growth? No., but there are physical and practical lessons to be learned as well.
If I understood correctly, the question is, if suffering is good for us then why do many Christians pray for their suffering to end? Is that not counterproductive?
The truth is that many times that is the very reason for our suffering, to get us to seek the Lord, so that He can draw us closer to Him. It is in our suffering that we seek out the Lord, it is in our times of trial that we pray to the Lord in desperation, it is in these moments that we truly surrender our will to God. It is in these moments that God is nearest to us.
Look at Jesus. "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42) Jesus asked God to deliver Him from what was to come, but then He surrendered His will to God. And we need to do the same, when we pray for deliverance we must also add, "Not my will, Lord, but Thine be done." We present our request before the Lord, e.g. deliverance from our current problems/trials/tests/etc., and then we leave the matter in His hands.
Nobody enjoys suffering. Suffering of itself isn't beneficial, it is what is born of suffering that is beneficial.
My reply is on the blog page.
7 hours ago, Newbie said:
Is suffering good for us? Yes, because there are many things you can only learn through suffering. Does all suffering bring spiritual growth? No., but there are physical and practical lessons to be learned as well.
If I understood correctly, the question is, if suffering is good for us then why do many Christians pray for their suffering to end? Is that not counterproductive?
The truth is that many times that is the very reason for our suffering, to get us to seek the Lord, so that He can draw us closer to Him. It is in our suffering that we seek out the Lord, it is in our times of trial that we pray to the Lord in desperation, it is in these moments that we truly surrender our will to God. It is in these moments that God is nearest to us.
Look at Jesus. "Father, if thou be willing, remove this cup from me: nevertheless not my will, but thine, be done." (Luke 22:42) Jesus asked God to deliver Him from what was to come, but then He surrendered His will to God. And we need to do the same, when we pray for deliverance we must also add, "Not my will, Lord, but Thine be done." We present our request before the Lord, e.g. deliverance from our current problems/trials/tests/etc., and then we leave the matter in His hands.
Nobody enjoys suffering. Suffering of itself isn't beneficial, it is what is born of suffering that is beneficial.
My reply is on the blog page.
Newbie
Beloved of All
17 hours ago, Steven Bobb said:
I know Christians are "taught" to believe that,but I don't buy it for a few reasons.One, I think it "shortchanges" God. saying it's the ONLY way He can get to us,He doesn't know any better way.To Christians, that seems to be the ONLY way God knows.Second, it doesn't always work;in my case and other posts I read, some Christians feel more grateful to God when He blesses them, not gives them, or lets them stay in, hardships.Thirdly, by that logic,masochists would be the most spiritual people on Earth.Does that way of thinking imply that every time a masochist gets beaten with a cat of nine tails,he gets more spiritual?Yey many masochists are atheists.. Also, the Hindus believe in torturing themselves fo win God over,but with that suffering, they'restill pagans.Also, those in the Lake of Fire , by that logic,must be the most godly of all, because they suffer for eternity,but we know they're anything but.So again, that "one size fits all",parrot like response to EVERYONE with every problem, I can't say it always applies.
My reply is on the blog page.
1. Is suffering the only way for God to reach us? No. The exact reason for why God uses suffering to teach us lessons is unknown to us. The Bible says that He uses suffering to teach us lessons, to purify us, and to draw us closer to God. But as far as I know, the Bible doesn't actually say why God chooses to do it this way. My theory is that this is the only way God can reach us at times without violating our free will. During times of hardship and trial, we come of our own free will to God, begging Him to intervene. God cannot help us without violating our free will unless we surrender our free will to God. Yes, God could simply snap His fingers and say, "It is done." But that is not how He usually chooses to work.
2. Nobody enjoys suffering. The Bible says, "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:11) Now, this verse is talking about punishment, but the same principal applies to suffering.
For example, do you feel grateful when you are broke, without a penny in the bank, and the rent coming up? Of course not. Do you enjoy it? No. But it does make you get down on your knees in prayer before God, begging Him to intervene. It makes you get desperate with the Lord. And in doing so, it serves a dual purpose. a) God will supply your needs, for He has never failed His children, b) thus reinforcing your faith and trust in Him
3. As I said before, suffering of itself isn't beneficial, it is what is born of suffering that is beneficial. Masochists love or enjoy suffering for the sake of suffering. They do not cry out to God in their distress, they do not seek His name. God uses suffering, but not all suffering is from God. The attacks of the Devil, for instance. The lake of fire is the punishment for the wicked, it is not meant to be a tool for teaching a lesson, though perhaps it could be argued that the lesson there is that they should have obeyed God, they should have accepted Him, they should have surrendered their will to Him.
For example, if I were to take a hammer and hit it against my toe on purpose, what purpose would that serve? What lesson would I learn? None. That is an example of suffering for the sake of suffering. There is no lesson to be learned except perhaps that I really shouldn't do that a second time.
Steven Bobb
Beloved of All
Still doesn't addess that it doesn't apply to all cases.There are many fine Christians who had a good life,but were still good Christians, and others who are unsaved, suffered hardships, and got further away from God.I still say it's not an absolute requirement to being a good Christian.Like, an unsaved person candie from cancer, suffer before death,but still die unsaved.A Christian can be blessed with a good life,die saved.It's faith in Jesus Christ as Gods sacrifice that saves us,not the suffering.
5 hours ago, Newbie said:
1. Is suffering the only way for God to reach us? No. The exact reason for why God uses suffering to teach us lessons is unknown to us. The Bible says that He uses suffering to teach us lessons, to purify us, and to draw us closer to God. But as far as I know, the Bible doesn't actually say why God chooses to do it this way. My theory is that this is the only way God can reach us at times without violating our free will. During times of hardship and trial, we come of our own free will to God, begging Him to intervene. God cannot help us without violating our free will unless we surrender our free will to God. Yes, God could simply snap His fingers and say, "It is done." But that is not how He usually chooses to work.
2. Nobody enjoys suffering. The Bible says, "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:11) Now, this verse is talking about punishment, but the same principal applies to suffering.
For example, do you feel grateful when you are broke, without a penny in the bank, and the rent coming up? Of course not. Do you enjoy it? No. But it does make you get down on your knees in prayer before God, begging Him to intervene. It makes you get desperate with the Lord. And in doing so, it serves a dual purpose. a) God will supply your needs, for He has never failed His children, b) thus reinforcing your faith and trust in Him
3. As I said before, suffering of itself isn't beneficial, it is what is born of suffering that is beneficial. Masochists love or enjoy suffering for the sake of suffering. They do not cry out to God in their distress, they do not seek His name. God uses suffering, but not all suffering is from God. The attacks of the Devil, for instance. The lake of fire is the punishment for the wicked, it is not meant to be a tool for teaching a lesson, though perhaps it could be argued that the lesson there is that they should have obeyed God, they should have accepted Him, they should have surrendered their will to Him.
For example, if I were to take a hammer and hit it against my toe on purpose, what purpose would that serve? What lesson would I learn? None. That is an example of suffering for the sake of suffering. There is no lesson to be learned except perhaps that I really shouldn't do that a second time.
5 hours ago, Newbie said:
1. Is suffering the only way for God to reach us? No. The exact reason for why God uses suffering to teach us lessons is unknown to us. The Bible says that He uses suffering to teach us lessons, to purify us, and to draw us closer to God. But as far as I know, the Bible doesn't actually say why God chooses to do it this way. My theory is that this is the only way God can reach us at times without violating our free will. During times of hardship and trial, we come of our own free will to God, begging Him to intervene. God cannot help us without violating our free will unless we surrender our free will to God. Yes, God could simply snap His fingers and say, "It is done." But that is not how He usually chooses to work.
2. Nobody enjoys suffering. The Bible says, "Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievous: nevertheless afterward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of righteousness unto them which are exercised thereby." (Hebrews 12:11) Now, this verse is talking about punishment, but the same principal applies to suffering.
For example, do you feel grateful when you are broke, without a penny in the bank, and the rent coming up? Of course not. Do you enjoy it? No. But it does make you get down on your knees in prayer before God, begging Him to intervene. It makes you get desperate with the Lord. And in doing so, it serves a dual purpose. a) God will supply your needs, for He has never failed His children, b) thus reinforcing your faith and trust in Him
3. As I said before, suffering of itself isn't beneficial, it is what is born of suffering that is beneficial. Masochists love or enjoy suffering for the sake of suffering. They do not cry out to God in their distress, they do not seek His name. God uses suffering, but not all suffering is from God. The attacks of the Devil, for instance. The lake of fire is the punishment for the wicked, it is not meant to be a tool for teaching a lesson, though perhaps it could be argued that the lesson there is that they should have obeyed God, they should have accepted Him, they should have surrendered their will to Him.
For example, if I were to take a hammer and hit it against my toe on purpose, what purpose would that serve? What lesson would I learn? None. That is an example of suffering for the sake of suffering. There is no lesson to be learned except perhaps that I really shouldn't do that a second time.
Newbie
Beloved of All
1 hour ago, Steven Bobb said:
Still doesn't addess that it doesn't apply to all cases.There are many fine Christians who had a good life,but were still good Christians, and others who are unsaved, suffered hardships, and got further away from God.I still say it's not an absolute requirement to being a good Christian.Like, an unsaved person candie from cancer, suffer before death,but still die unsaved.A Christian can be blessed with a good life,die saved.It's faith in Jesus Christ as Gods sacrifice that saves us,not the suffering.
No, suffering is not a requirement, nowhere in the Bible does it say "You have to suffer." However, the Bible does say that you will suffer in this life.
"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12)
For each person it is different however. Some people are put in prison for their faith, others experience economic hardships, others are made fun of at work or at school for being Christians, others have problems with their health, others have mental issues to deal with, such as depression, loneliness, etc.
For each person it is different, but I have yet to meet anyone, Christian or atheist, who has not suffered at one or more times in their lives. Like it or not, suffering is a part of life. How people react to the suffering in their lives differs as well. Some people turn to God in their hour of need, others become angry and bitter against God, blaming Him for their situation.
God uses suffering to teach us, to purify us, to remake us, and to humble us, but we have free will. God is not responsible for how we react to the trials and tests that come our way, that is on us.
Steven Bobb
Beloved of All
5 minutes ago, Newbie said:
No, suffering is not a requirement, nowhere in the Bible does it say "You have to suffer." However, the Bible does say that you will suffer in this life.
"Yea, and all that will live godly in Christ Jesus shall suffer persecution." (2 Timothy 3:12)
For each person it is different however. Some people are put in prison for their faith, others experience economic hardships, others are made fun of at work or at school for being Christians, others have problems with their health, others have mental issues to deal with, such as depression, loneliness, etc.
For each person it is different, but I have yet to meet anyone, Christian or atheist, who has not suffered at one or more times in their lives. Like it or not, suffering is a part of life. How people react to the suffering in their lives differs as well. Some people turn to God in their hour of need, others become angry and bitter against God, blaming Him for their situation.
God uses suffering to teach us, to purify us, to remake us, and to humble us, but we have free will. God is not responsible for how we react to the trials and tests that come our way, that is on us.
Pesecution I can see more than jusr ,a spate of bad luck.Persecutioin is standing up for our beliefs against maltreatment. That I don't have a problem with accepting.
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